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Meta: SPN 4.21 Meta and Speculation Overflow - CaffieneKittySpace
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Meta: SPN 4.21 Meta and Speculation Overflow
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Redirected from SPN 4.21 Reaction to spare the spec-phobes.


What might really be happening with Sam and the demon blood.

I don't think Sam's detoxing or addicted. I think he's weaning. That 'mother's milk' thing? Yeah. All the way back to the start of season two (Actually earlier, but I didn't post anything about it 'til then) and continued adapting. I have thought that the YED blood inside Sam is a seed of some sort, growing a new YED. And more and more I think I'm right. Because it's being fed demon blood to grow. Stronger, bigger appetite... it's not an addiction, and they've been faking everyone out by making it seem like an addiction.

Are babies addicted to their mother's milk? No.

What that implies is that it's not Sam who's the monster. It's the YED growing inside him. Sam not having demon-powers while astral-projecting in "Death Takes a Holiday" plays into this too, because Sam's soul or spirit is what's wandering around, not his physical body with the YED seed and the demon blood. Sam is a host for a demonic parasite.

OMG I had a thought there and lost it. Ah! Okay, weird-ass metaphor going on here. That whole 'only needs one' YED-kid showdown? Think about it. Kind of squicking myself here, but how many sperm does it take to make a baby? Just one that beats out all the rest.

Also to take into account, something Castiel said in the junkyard: "Quite likely Sam would become the next creature Dean would feel compelled to kill." There's some lovely double-speak there. Sam becoming a YED by way of nursing on demon blood and growing the YED to full strength so it can take him over and over power his personality would still count and leave Sam still Sam, needing rescued more than ever. Even though it may not seem like it.


Seals, Lilith, and Casiel

Last we saw Lilith, she was not wanting to keep up the Apocalypse thing because she found out she'd not survive it. So, she's also involved in the opening of the final seal, right? I'm thinking her death opens the final seal.

Thing is, if she knows this, why is she still opening seals? Lilith, to date, has arguably been the most tactically savvy of all the boss-level demons on this show. To go ahead with this is either a level of selflessness heretofore unseen from this character, or she's not running the game anymore. I'm thinking maybe her entourage had a dual purpose. They're her flunkies, but also her jailers, should she twig to her role as the final seal too early. Evil nurse may be cooking up babies for her, but she's caged. Either another demon has taken over the op, or... it's the rogue angels.

The angels' "Cult of Lucifer" having started opening the seals themselves would explain where they've been, and why Sam was ordered released, if Castiel's orders are coming from them through subterfuge.

Castiel had orders to release Sam. He says he serves Heaven, but seriously, bad things happened there and what he now thinks is heaven may not be. Or he might have some kind of angelic Stockholm syndrome. There's the mole in the Angel network still, and the cult of Lucifer who may or may not be the ones now breaking seals. Or he may be trying to infiltrate the cult of Lucifer to bring it down. He obviously has something he's hiding, and his "I can't" to Dean i the junkyard was very telling about his situation. He's being observed; who exactly by will come in the fullness of time. How his orders to get Dean onboard spin things it another matter entirely.

The capture of Anna... I'm thinking in the eyes of heaven, Anna's kind of an abomination. She stole her grace back and got her physical body back in ways possibly better left unexamined (like, say, the grace of one of the dead angels from head of a pin was extracted and used to pull her body together from atoms), so her capture does not clarify things. I'm a proponent of the 'Anna is the secret mastermind behind the moles in the Angel network'. But maybe she isn't. I'm not sure who's side she's on anymore.



Anyway, just some scattered thoughts.



(PLEASE, NO SPOILERS OR REFERENCES TO SPOILERY MATERIAL IN COMMENTS! The definition of spoiler for this journal is located in left hand sidebar and includes references to promo material as spoilers. Theory and speculation based on aired episodes only.)

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Comments
kimberlyfdr From: kimberlyfdr Date: May 8th, 2009 12:09 pm (UTC) (Link)
So, she's also involved in the opening of the final seal, right? I'm thinking her death opens the final seal.

Sam killing her opens the final seal because he IS the final seal, as alluded to by Ruby in the episode...though both she and Sam aren't making that connection and instead think the Devil's #1 human twisted to demon is Lilith herself (ironic that Dean opened the first seal and Sam's the last one). That causes the issue for Dean where he has to either save Lilith to save the world and Sam or let Lilith die and therefore losing both Sam and the world.
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hm. I doubt that Ruby or whoever she's working for doesn't know exactly what Sam is being set up for there, regardless of whether Sam or Lillith is the final seal. She just isn't sharing the full info with Sam.
kimberlyfdr From: kimberlyfdr Date: May 8th, 2009 08:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
See, to me, I don't think Ruby knows. The power giving her orders? Totally knows. Just like Castiel, she's carrying out orders that she doesn't fully understand, but to me it seems like she believes that she's helping Sam stop it rather than hastening it.
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 9th, 2009 09:42 am (UTC) (Link)
Ah. And I think Ruby knows exatly what she's doing and is in no way innocent of anything, so that would be where the difference lies between our viewpoints. :-)
kimberlyfdr From: kimberlyfdr Date: May 9th, 2009 11:16 am (UTC) (Link)
That being said, though, I would be totally okay if Ruby died. Whether she's innocent in all of this or totally guilty, her death would be okay with me ;) Come on next week!
starrylizard From: starrylizard Date: May 8th, 2009 12:16 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think Sam must be the final seal. Ruby's story was all about how a human was lured into being the first demon. Um...Sam! I just can't quite figure where Lillith fits there any more. Apart from being the driving reason for him to drink the blood and therefore become a demon... hmmm. *hands* I'm not good at the thinky stuff.
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:08 pm (UTC) (Link)
As I understand it, in some traditional texts, Lilith was Adam's wife before Eve. Created from earth as an equal in all things, but she refused to be less than equal to Adam and then she was turned by Satan and became the mother of all monsters or something. According to some traditions which Show appears to be drawing on. Hence, she would be originally one of the first Humans, by that tradition. I don't know enough about the lore to properly comment, but I bet if you poke around spn heavy meta you'll find some essays on the traditional roles of Lilith and how they might relate to Show.
starrylizard From: starrylizard Date: May 8th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC) (Link)
*nods* I'll do that. Maybe Sam needs to kill her to take her place then. Maybe that's the last seal. Very interesting. :)
gigglingkat From: gigglingkat Date: May 8th, 2009 12:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
I don't think Lilith IS openning seals anymore. The demons she unleashed still are. Ruby is hunting her. I think Lilith is hiding from BOTH sides and Ruby and Sam find her. Ruby is hiding the fact that Lilith frees Lucifer - she just says that only Lilith "can do it" (with her death).

I don't believe that Ruby was actually referring to Sam. I've seen many people speculate that - and I understand why - but I just don't.

But I also totally believe that Sam's addicted. Flat out ugly junkie. And when they locked him up last episode my first thought was - "That won't work. You can't help a junkie who doesn't want help."
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think Lilith is hiding from BOTH sides.

Exactly.

I don't believe that Ruby was actually referring to Sam. I've seen many people speculate that - and I understand why - but I just don't.

Neither do I. If they're going with the "Lilith was Adam's wife before Eve" it makes perfect sense, but lots of people don't know Lilith lore and assume she was never human.

But I also totally believe that Sam's addicted. Flat out ugly junkie.

Could be, but... I just have a feeling that's not what it is. But I have been very wrong before.
ficwriter1966 From: ficwriter1966 Date: May 8th, 2009 01:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ooh! I like your mother's milk/YED theory! I hadn't seen that postulated anywhere before and I like it! *pats CK on the back for her thinky thoughts* There could be tie-ins, too, with Meg telling Dean she was in there all along, wanting to be helped. And Jimmy "riding the comet" with Castiel. Sam could be buried deep inside this new thing that's born, and Dean needs to rescue him. I like that! Go tell Kripke. Misha said the writers have just sat down to start mapping out S5, so drop those kids an e-mail. Or an anvil.

ITA that it could be the Cult of Lucifer that's opening the seals. They've said a couple of times that the angels don't know which seals are being opened, or in what order. If it were Lilith opening them all, one would think that a lot of effort would be devoted to finding her. Instead, there's been a lot of bumbling around. That would make sense if the good guys don't know who they're supposed to chase.

I'm stumped by Anna now, too. But I do think Heaven totally wants this war. I do *not* think God is behind the pro-war movement - I think that's in the lap of the war-mongering Joint Chiefs of Staff. Headed by the Upstairs version of Dick Cheney. Would might or might not be Zachariah. (Who reminds me of Cheney.)
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ooh! I like your mother's milk/YED theory! I hadn't seen that postulated anywhere before and I like it!

I've had it for a very long time, back into Season one. I was originally writing a huge epic AU (I've got significant chunks of it written I might post one of these days, even though a few scenes have now actually happened on the show, so I'd look like a goof) after the Season one finale which I never posted any of because I figured Kripke would never be that mean (har har har) and the Meta part started seeming more Meta and less AU.

There could be tie-ins, too, with Meg telling Dean she was in there all along, wanting to be helped. And Jimmy "riding the comet" with Castiel. Sam could be buried deep inside this new thing that's born, and Dean needs to rescue him. I like that!

I know, there are little things that pop up here and there throughout the series that seem to support this being right... It's been freaking me out since season one. Particularly when something happens on the show that's just like something in a page and a half of scrawled text in my old fic notebook.

Go tell Kripke. Misha said the writers have just sat down to start mapping out S5, so drop those kids an e-mail. Or an anvil.

Heh. I think they already are. The last thing I asked Kripke for was the spotlights back on the Impala and for Dean's pendant to be used as a connection between Sam and Dean in Hell, and I never got those. *pouts*

I do *not* think God is behind the pro-war movement - I think that's in the lap of the war-mongering Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Heee! So, SPN/24 bleeds over into the mytharc? WHO IS ANNA WORKING FOR! Hee!

Headed by the Upstairs version of Dick Cheney. Would might or might not be Zachariah. (Who reminds me of Cheney.)

He does, sort of. *snerk*
anniehow From: anniehow Date: May 8th, 2009 02:06 pm (UTC) (Link)
DEMONIC PARASITE THEORY FTMF WIN!
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hee! Thank you! It's one I've had a very long time.
kimmer1227 From: kimmer1227 Date: May 8th, 2009 04:14 pm (UTC) (Link)
Sam is a host for a demonic parasite.

That is the awesomest of the awesome theories. It really fits all the squares. Make it so!
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 8th, 2009 08:26 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm so hoping this is what's actually happening, even though it's freaking me out that the evidence to support it is still there when I came up with the theory back in season one.
brigid_tanner From: brigid_tanner Date: May 8th, 2009 11:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
Sam is a host for a demonic parasite. Now I like that idea...Jared's got the acting skills now to do it justice, and watching Dean try to get Sam back without killing him could be fun/torture/something...to watch.

I mostly just want Ruby dead and gone forever. I kept thinking Dean should have suggested Sam draining her dry to have enough power to take out Lilith, then the boys could have driven off into the sunset. Well, that ain't happening this season!


caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 9th, 2009 09:45 am (UTC) (Link)
kept thinking Dean should have suggested Sam draining her dry to have enough power to take out Lilith, then the boys could have driven off into the sunset.

Dean's going to need to have a huge change in perspective to suggest that, fun as it would be to get rid of Ruby. Also, massive Sam guilt.
From: crasi Date: May 9th, 2009 02:45 am (UTC) (Link)

Lurker chiming in

There's a certain balance to the eldest breaking the first and the youngest breaking the last. If the Heavens created the seals, wouldn't Lilith be the perfect final one. After all her self-preservation would out weigh her loyalty to her creator. I just wonder if Ruby was put in place to protect Sam until he can break the final seal.

In theory, Sam is going to drink massive amounts of blood, kill Lilith, and possibly break the final seal.... and Lucifer is going to appear in demon form? or could he select a vessel, wouldn't a human with demon blood be perfect?

As for the heavens, could it have reached the point where they're trying for a controlled release? Break the one seal, then quickly lock Lucifer back up with new improved locks.
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 9th, 2009 09:50 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Lurker chiming in

If the Heavens created the seals, wouldn't Lilith be the perfect final one. After all her self-preservation would out weigh her loyalty to her creator. I just wonder if Ruby was put in place to protect Sam until he can break the final seal.

I figure yes to all that.

Lucifer is going to appear in demon form? or could he select a vessel, wouldn't a human with demon blood be perfect?

See the third link up above, "adapting". It's buried amongst a load of other blither, but yeah, I figure the YED's demonseed's kind of a handyman-tenant. Fix up the place so the boss can move in.

As for the heavens, could it have reached the point where they're trying for a controlled release?

Like a fire-break for a forest fire? It's possible, I guess, but ludicrously risky. I'm thinking the non-heaven aligned angels are involved.
feliciakw From: feliciakw Date: May 9th, 2009 11:00 am (UTC) (Link)
Ficwriter sent me over. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm a speculationphobe or not. But when I read something like your first point, I think, "Dang! Why didn't I think of that?" This would be my response to your first section.

Re: Lilith . . . Yes, this is what I was saying the other day, that killing Lilith is the last seal. That Dean broke the first seal, Sam will break the last seal, and it will be a bad, bad, so very, very not good thing. This will somehow complete Sam's transformation into Darth Vader . . . erm, the leader of the demon hordes, and I will weep and weep and hide in my pillow fort by the river in Egypt all summer long. (Either that or traumatically block out the entire incident.)

Re: Castiel as undercover agent into the cult . . . Oooh, I like that idea. I like Cas. I've always liked Cas. I hope they don't give me reason to stop liking Cas. Right now, I have to think there's more going on than what they're telling us (duh).

Re: Anna . . . um . . . I thought she got zapped. Didn't she? She went to see Cas, she got arrested, and there was a bright, zappy light. Cas and Uriel were hunting her down before because she had to face the consequences of jumping ship. I'm under the impression that the authorities finally caught up with her. Bzuh?

Edited at 2009-05-09 11:03 am (UTC)
caffienekitty From: caffienekitty Date: May 9th, 2009 08:26 pm (UTC) (Link)
She went to see Cas, she got arrested, and there was a bright, zappy light.

It was reminiscent of the light from when Castiel took over Jimmy. Also, it happened off-screen, so finality of anything that happened there is in doubt. They might have just ripped her grace out of her again.

Cas and Uriel were hunting her down before because she had to face the consequences of jumping ship.

Yep. But Uriel's lied about other things before. Plus he retrieved her grace and was keeping it in an insecure, easily grabbable location. If, say, she's the secret head of the cult of Lucifer, Uriel's actions could easily be a way of getting his cult leader's grace re-installed and her back in the thick of things without looking like he was disobeying higher orders or seeming suspicious. Her later killing of Uriel and stopping him... well, maybe he'd gotten a little too off the rails with the whole "I'm killing anyone who doesn't switch sides" thing and attracting too much attention. So, as cult leader, she smacked him down with finality.

Back to what happened in 4.21, it could be the authorities catching up with her, it could be a in-cult coup (probably by Zachariah because he just looks the type), or it could be soething else entirely. Until we know exactly where Castiel stands and why, it's hard to say.
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